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FIRST OF ALL, A PIMP! For the record, I do not actually ship the Medicine Seller with anyone. To me, he's a completely asexual being, though I'll write anything at least once -- maybe twice, if interested. *g* However, there is this song:
The Hush Sound - Medicine Man
that is, for me, a Kayo-->Medicine Seller song. It is also super-catchy and I can hear Chira laughing at me all the way over here. :|b
Now, the actual post! This is something I have nattered about before, multiple times, but then this post by Laylah (over on IJ) got me thinking about it again -- that, and the fact that I had this emo spat over the weekend which is gone now, like DUUuuUUUuSSST in the WIIIiIIIiinnnnd-- don't make me sing, guys, you'll regret it forever and ever. :(
But more seriously, what Laylah was talking about is something I've seen before -- granted, not in the same context as her -- her creative writing classes -- mooooostly because. Well. I took only one creative writing class, and that was back in high school a-and I realized that, um. Most of the people were taking it for an easy grade (our teacher was a super-sweet woman, but prone to be overly-forgiving of deadlines and the like), or were the sort of Arteests that I can't stand. What I do have is roughly twelve years (?!?!?!) of active-ish participation on the internet and fandoms, though less now than when I first started out. And it's really not unusual, sadly, to see people declare that things must have ANGST and ANNNNGST and YET MORE ANGST in order to be "deep" or "meaningful" or -- and I think this is the worst bullshit of all -- be "worthy writing."
This isn't to say that I think dark/angsty things don't have redeeming value -- sometimes, a story just needs to be dark. There are times when that's just how the cards fall, and that's awesome! But that doesn't make it any more artistic or a better read than a happy story -- a comedy has just as much potential to be poignant and touching and move you as much as a tragedy. (Perhaps not the modern slapstick comedy so much, no, but hell, much as I hate the genre, that's part of the appeal of "romantic comedies," isn't it?)
However, I think I'd expand that -- and I'll make a confession:
I really don't like "tragically noble" types.
Nine times out of ten, noble suffering gets my hackles up and just ... irritates me. Stop me if you've heard this story -- someone is wrongly accused of HORRIBLE TERRIBLE THINGS!1! and is punished for them, but believes THEY DESERVE THIS PUNISHMENT!1!!! because somewhere along the way, they've at least partly internalized the world's finger-pointing, and now they have TRAGIC NOBLE ANGST as they struggle valiantly to NOT LET HISTORY'S MISTAKES REPEAT THEMSEEEEEEELVES!
I just. I can't. Oh my god, when I run into characters like that, I want to whack them on the back and say CHEER UP EMO KID because-- well. That's kind of what Noble Tragics do to me. This is not to say I dislike them all, because I believe there are exceptions to every rule, but as a general whole? No thank you.
That's not to say my favorite sort of angsty character -- I am super-super weak the smiling "I've got a secret" ones who play their parts as tricksters and jokesters and yet have terrible, terrible backstory (cough cough gee, I wonder who in my current fandom(s) are like that :p) -- aren't irritating, either. But the thing is, I like that element of lightness and comedy to a character. Even if it's ultimately a charade -- though with my favorites, I would argue it's NOT -- it feels, to me, like they have more depth than your Noble Tragic or your Quiet Brooder. The Fake Smile has at least two notes to their personality, even if you don't see the second note till it's almost too late.
And honestly, guys, what is UP with hating on characters just because they're happy? Why is a character shallow if he/she is outgoing and upbeat and prefers a smile over a frown? Why are they seen as idiots compared to their angstier companions? (I mean, all right, the general rule in fiction is that happier characters might not be as bright academically, but they tend to have very good instincts emotionally -- and normally they have some pretty insightful views/beliefs on human nature and the heart. AND EVEN THEN, that's not always the case; there are plenty of happy characters who're academically smart as well.)
Just. I don't know, I can't speak for the world as a whole, but for myself? I actually feel a lot more satisfied with a happy ending than a tragic one -- I find a story that ends with hope infinitely preferable to the downward spiral finally hitting rock-bottom. I think that's why characters matter so much to me -- I will forgive a weaker plot if characters are awesome, but an awesome plot with lukewarm charactersor even a wannabe awesome plot insert rant about certain games that anyone who's actually talked to me know what I mean usually loses my interest super-fast.
I have to like your characters before their tragedies mean anything to me -- and I grow to care about characters by seeing their joys.
Part of it is that, like I said in my comment to Laylah, fiction isn't all escapism for me. Or more accurately, storytelling isn't escapism: I do it all the time. "There was this thing that happened to me and a friend," or "I'd heard that this was--" or "oh man, I just got back from [xx]." And my life, guys, is not all tragedy and woe -- it's not even a LITTLE tragedy and woe. Most of my angst comes from internal sources, rather than the world dropkicking me like a game of hackeysack.
There are so many little joys in life. Missing out on that is a terrible thing, imo.
TL;DR version: I think angsty characters are actually more shallow and one-dimensional than happy ones. It is so easy to find something to be sad about, guys. There are times where the stronger person is the one who looks past the grim and the dirt and ugly twisted sadnesses and sees the beautiful underneath.
Next time, I think I might awaken on a bandwagon and do that not-quite-a-question-meme that![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
mackzazzle started. :|b
The Hush Sound - Medicine Man
that is, for me, a Kayo-->Medicine Seller song. It is also super-catchy and I can hear Chira laughing at me all the way over here. :|b
Now, the actual post! This is something I have nattered about before, multiple times, but then this post by Laylah (over on IJ) got me thinking about it again -- that, and the fact that I had this emo spat over the weekend which is gone now, like DUUuuUUUuSSST in the WIIIiIIIiinnnnd-- don't make me sing, guys, you'll regret it forever and ever. :(
But more seriously, what Laylah was talking about is something I've seen before -- granted, not in the same context as her -- her creative writing classes -- mooooostly because. Well. I took only one creative writing class, and that was back in high school a-and I realized that, um. Most of the people were taking it for an easy grade (our teacher was a super-sweet woman, but prone to be overly-forgiving of deadlines and the like), or were the sort of Arteests that I can't stand. What I do have is roughly twelve years (?!?!?!) of active-ish participation on the internet and fandoms, though less now than when I first started out. And it's really not unusual, sadly, to see people declare that things must have ANGST and ANNNNGST and YET MORE ANGST in order to be "deep" or "meaningful" or -- and I think this is the worst bullshit of all -- be "worthy writing."
This isn't to say that I think dark/angsty things don't have redeeming value -- sometimes, a story just needs to be dark. There are times when that's just how the cards fall, and that's awesome! But that doesn't make it any more artistic or a better read than a happy story -- a comedy has just as much potential to be poignant and touching and move you as much as a tragedy. (Perhaps not the modern slapstick comedy so much, no, but hell, much as I hate the genre, that's part of the appeal of "romantic comedies," isn't it?)
However, I think I'd expand that -- and I'll make a confession:
I really don't like "tragically noble" types.
Nine times out of ten, noble suffering gets my hackles up and just ... irritates me. Stop me if you've heard this story -- someone is wrongly accused of HORRIBLE TERRIBLE THINGS!1! and is punished for them, but believes THEY DESERVE THIS PUNISHMENT!1!!! because somewhere along the way, they've at least partly internalized the world's finger-pointing, and now they have TRAGIC NOBLE ANGST as they struggle valiantly to NOT LET HISTORY'S MISTAKES REPEAT THEMSEEEEEEELVES!
I just. I can't. Oh my god, when I run into characters like that, I want to whack them on the back and say CHEER UP EMO KID because-- well. That's kind of what Noble Tragics do to me. This is not to say I dislike them all, because I believe there are exceptions to every rule, but as a general whole? No thank you.
That's not to say my favorite sort of angsty character -- I am super-super weak the smiling "I've got a secret" ones who play their parts as tricksters and jokesters and yet have terrible, terrible backstory (cough cough gee, I wonder who in my current fandom(s) are like that :p) -- aren't irritating, either. But the thing is, I like that element of lightness and comedy to a character. Even if it's ultimately a charade -- though with my favorites, I would argue it's NOT -- it feels, to me, like they have more depth than your Noble Tragic or your Quiet Brooder. The Fake Smile has at least two notes to their personality, even if you don't see the second note till it's almost too late.
And honestly, guys, what is UP with hating on characters just because they're happy? Why is a character shallow if he/she is outgoing and upbeat and prefers a smile over a frown? Why are they seen as idiots compared to their angstier companions? (I mean, all right, the general rule in fiction is that happier characters might not be as bright academically, but they tend to have very good instincts emotionally -- and normally they have some pretty insightful views/beliefs on human nature and the heart. AND EVEN THEN, that's not always the case; there are plenty of happy characters who're academically smart as well.)
Just. I don't know, I can't speak for the world as a whole, but for myself? I actually feel a lot more satisfied with a happy ending than a tragic one -- I find a story that ends with hope infinitely preferable to the downward spiral finally hitting rock-bottom. I think that's why characters matter so much to me -- I will forgive a weaker plot if characters are awesome, but an awesome plot with lukewarm characters
I have to like your characters before their tragedies mean anything to me -- and I grow to care about characters by seeing their joys.
Part of it is that, like I said in my comment to Laylah, fiction isn't all escapism for me. Or more accurately, storytelling isn't escapism: I do it all the time. "There was this thing that happened to me and a friend," or "I'd heard that this was--" or "oh man, I just got back from [xx]." And my life, guys, is not all tragedy and woe -- it's not even a LITTLE tragedy and woe. Most of my angst comes from internal sources, rather than the world dropkicking me like a game of hackeysack.
There are so many little joys in life. Missing out on that is a terrible thing, imo.
TL;DR version: I think angsty characters are actually more shallow and one-dimensional than happy ones. It is so easy to find something to be sad about, guys. There are times where the stronger person is the one who looks past the grim and the dirt and ugly twisted sadnesses and sees the beautiful underneath.
Next time, I think I might awaken on a bandwagon and do that not-quite-a-question-meme that
mackzazzle started. :|bTags:
From:
no subject
But ultimately, for me, happy wins out. O-one of the reasons I could never really get into DDS, beyond unfortunate circumstances, is because that game is actually a prime example of "too dark for my tastes." And before you point out its humor/cute moments, I know they're there. But overall, post-apocalyptic stories are irritating for me because they're inherently tragic at their core, and they need a really strong kick or twist to get me and ... cannabalism, sadly, ain't it.
See, I love Ginji; I love that he's not bright, but he's not stupid; there are things that he understands instinctively about people that Ban, for all his education and technical understanding, still doesn't get. ... also, honestly, super-booksmart characters tend to annoy me a bit too (though that's a different rant), depending on how they're executed. Just because you're smart doesn't make you not an idiot in many other ways. XD;;;
Ehhh, I'm sorry if I'm coming off as confrontational here, but these are both points that I feel strongly on, even if I don't really say much about them, haha. |Db
From:
no subject
I knew I was phrasing it badly. You're right, he isn't stupid. I know a lot of the reason he comes off that way is because growing up in Infinity Fortress, there's just no way to learn about things other people take knowing about for granted, like the Statue of Liberty. Emotionally, he is much smarter than Ban. It's just that when characters lack that kind of basic information, I get irritated with them despite rationally knowing that the fact that they don't know stuff like that really is an interesting way of emphasizing the sheer difference in how they grew up as compared to most people. Rationally speaking I know that and I'm irritated with myself for not getting past that and liking the characters more, because it's snobby and stupid of me.
And I have to agree that purely booksmart characters can be incredibly irritating, especially if they're the smugly booksmart characters. It's just that I identify with them easier because if I had my way I'd spend my entire life doing nothing but reading. So unless they're the smug, book-learning > anything else type, they get a bit more of a pass from me.
Don't worry, you didn't come off as confrontational~♥
From:
no subject
[nods] And really, for the most part, I feel like that's unfair to the characters (well, as inasmuch as one CAN be "unfair" to a fictional character, haha). There are your basic idiots that are just cute and loved despite their idiocy (some of them I do too, admittedly) -- but characters like Ginji, who didn't have the opportunity to learn these things, it's not their fault.
M-mostly I think I have an issue with, yeah, the snobbery that's inherent in declaring you like smarter characters better. XD; Which isn't your fault or is going to change anything about how you feel, but is sort of why I'm kind of "..." about that statement. XD I feel compelled to take the underdog's side, even if ultimately I'm not much for them, either. XD
From:
no subject
Hey, you can totally be unfair to a fictional character. God knows I've wanted to go dude, stop that at enough people bashing female characters for daring to have a vagina and be in the vicinity at hot guys. And I do think that's unfair of me, especially in cases like Ginji's. I'm capable of working past those prejudices in real life. (Well... unless they start talking football and car racing at me. I blame being raised as the only girl in a family of football and car racing nuts. XD) It's just that in fiction, I don't go to the same effort because it's just for fun.
...Huh. I think I just realized that the other part of my lack of interest in Ginji (and Ban, for that matter, considering he's much closer to my usual type but I have even less interest in him than Ginji because he doesn't have that cheerfulness) is that he's such a GUY. And half the reason I read manga and play videogames in the first place is to avoid the guys in my house. XD
From:
no subject
That's also very true! Fiction and fandom are all ultimately for fun -- there's no point in forcing hobbies you don't enjoy, I think. ... and funny enough, I actually love Ban and Ginji for being STUPID GUYS. Despite being an only child and mostly hanging out with girls growing up, I honestly am not a fan of most shoujo or the borderline series; I like the stupid guys hitting each other and things blowing up. XD