Happily ever after, the end?

[nekokoban]

FIRST OF ALL, A PIMP! For the record, I do not actually ship the Medicine Seller with anyone. To me, he's a completely asexual being, though I'll write anything at least once -- maybe twice, if interested. *g* However, there is this song:

The Hush Sound - Medicine Man

that is, for me, a Kayo-->Medicine Seller song. It is also super-catchy and I can hear Chira laughing at me all the way over here. :|b

Now, the actual post! This is something I have nattered about before, multiple times, but then this post by Laylah (over on IJ) got me thinking about it again -- that, and the fact that I had this emo spat over the weekend which is gone now, like DUUuuUUUuSSST in the WIIIiIIIiinnnnd-- don't make me sing, guys, you'll regret it forever and ever. :(

But more seriously, what Laylah was talking about is something I've seen before -- granted, not in the same context as her -- her creative writing classes -- mooooostly because. Well. I took only one creative writing class, and that was back in high school a-and I realized that, um. Most of the people were taking it for an easy grade (our teacher was a super-sweet woman, but prone to be overly-forgiving of deadlines and the like), or were the sort of Arteests that I can't stand. What I do have is roughly twelve years (?!?!?!) of active-ish participation on the internet and fandoms, though less now than when I first started out. And it's really not unusual, sadly, to see people declare that things must have ANGST and ANNNNGST and YET MORE ANGST in order to be "deep" or "meaningful" or -- and I think this is the worst bullshit of all -- be "worthy writing."

This isn't to say that I think dark/angsty things don't have redeeming value -- sometimes, a story just needs to be dark. There are times when that's just how the cards fall, and that's awesome! But that doesn't make it any more artistic or a better read than a happy story -- a comedy has just as much potential to be poignant and touching and move you as much as a tragedy. (Perhaps not the modern slapstick comedy so much, no, but hell, much as I hate the genre, that's part of the appeal of "romantic comedies," isn't it?)

However, I think I'd expand that -- and I'll make a confession:

I really don't like "tragically noble" types.

Nine times out of ten, noble suffering gets my hackles up and just ... irritates me. Stop me if you've heard this story -- someone is wrongly accused of HORRIBLE TERRIBLE THINGS!1! and is punished for them, but believes THEY DESERVE THIS PUNISHMENT!1!!! because somewhere along the way, they've at least partly internalized the world's finger-pointing, and now they have TRAGIC NOBLE ANGST as they struggle valiantly to NOT LET HISTORY'S MISTAKES REPEAT THEMSEEEEEEELVES!

I just. I can't. Oh my god, when I run into characters like that, I want to whack them on the back and say CHEER UP EMO KID because-- well. That's kind of what Noble Tragics do to me. This is not to say I dislike them all, because I believe there are exceptions to every rule, but as a general whole? No thank you.

That's not to say my favorite sort of angsty character -- I am super-super weak the smiling "I've got a secret" ones who play their parts as tricksters and jokesters and yet have terrible, terrible backstory (cough cough gee, I wonder who in my current fandom(s) are like that :p) -- aren't irritating, either. But the thing is, I like that element of lightness and comedy to a character. Even if it's ultimately a charade -- though with my favorites, I would argue it's NOT -- it feels, to me, like they have more depth than your Noble Tragic or your Quiet Brooder. The Fake Smile has at least two notes to their personality, even if you don't see the second note till it's almost too late.

And honestly, guys, what is UP with hating on characters just because they're happy? Why is a character shallow if he/she is outgoing and upbeat and prefers a smile over a frown? Why are they seen as idiots compared to their angstier companions? (I mean, all right, the general rule in fiction is that happier characters might not be as bright academically, but they tend to have very good instincts emotionally -- and normally they have some pretty insightful views/beliefs on human nature and the heart. AND EVEN THEN, that's not always the case; there are plenty of happy characters who're academically smart as well.)

Just. I don't know, I can't speak for the world as a whole, but for myself? I actually feel a lot more satisfied with a happy ending than a tragic one -- I find a story that ends with hope infinitely preferable to the downward spiral finally hitting rock-bottom. I think that's why characters matter so much to me -- I will forgive a weaker plot if characters are awesome, but an awesome plot with lukewarm characters or even a wannabe awesome plot insert rant about certain games that anyone who's actually talked to me know what I mean usually loses my interest super-fast.

I have to like your characters before their tragedies mean anything to me -- and I grow to care about characters by seeing their joys.

Part of it is that, like I said in my comment to Laylah, fiction isn't all escapism for me. Or more accurately, storytelling isn't escapism: I do it all the time. "There was this thing that happened to me and a friend," or "I'd heard that this was--" or "oh man, I just got back from [xx]." And my life, guys, is not all tragedy and woe -- it's not even a LITTLE tragedy and woe. Most of my angst comes from internal sources, rather than the world dropkicking me like a game of hackeysack.

There are so many little joys in life. Missing out on that is a terrible thing, imo.

TL;DR version: I think angsty characters are actually more shallow and one-dimensional than happy ones. It is so easy to find something to be sad about, guys. There are times where the stronger person is the one who looks past the grim and the dirt and ugly twisted sadnesses and sees the beautiful underneath.

Next time, I think I might awaken on a bandwagon and do that not-quite-a-question-meme that mackzazzle started. :|b

Comments

[pinstripesuit.livejournal.com]

FUCK META

LET'S DANCE

[nekokoban]

!!

OKAY! \o/

[thewriter0.livejournal.com]

I love everything you just said. So much.

...♥

[nekokoban]

[fluffs] Thank you♥ I feel like this is something that should be said on a semi-regular basis.

[woodburner.livejournal.com]

I would think that MS was asexual, except well




..>DDDD


I completely agree with your rant, btw. I mean, anyone who says Daisuke, for instance, is shallow deserves a good dropkick to the head.

[nekokoban]

PHALLIC SYMBOLISM IS WIN, OKAY. But I still think of him ultimately as asexual. :|b

... man. Daisuke is, like, so incredibly zen that I sort of feel like he's deeper than the majority of his cast put together. XD WHICH IS REALLY WHY I LIKE HIM, I THINK. /o/

[wakuchan.livejournal.com]

c-can I just say "word"? 'Cause. Word.

I'm in a fiction writing class right now, and most of what we're reading is pretty weird/depressing (let's see...dead dog, weird symbolic beast also killed, some chick whose life is a wreck because she was sexually abused as a kid, a love story where the characters never see each other again after her father finds out... I think that was everything) and I just don't get what's so wrong about letting characters be happy. Geeze. The prof doesn't seem to think the doom-n-gloom is entirely necessary, at least.

[nekokoban]

I ... sometimes suspect that writers on the whole are in love with angst because it's much easier to hit large word counts with angst -- and on average, people are impressed with longer stories. This is just a vague unsubstantiated theory of mine, but sometimes I really wonder.

I've no problem, honestly, with a story that is depressing because of how the story goes -- I do kind of look askance at people who deliberately try to always write dark/angsty/"twisted" stuff, because man, that just sort of feels like trying too hard. I am also secretly judgemental, s-sigh. IT'S OKAY TO HAVE HAPPY CHARACTERS, I DON'T THINK YOU'LL BE HATED FOR IT. /o/;;

[sarraceniaceae.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I've always found books and characters who are all about the angst angst angst just to be as inane as the characters everyone seems to complain about being one-dimensional because they've never encountered anything bad in their entire lives. It's the interplay of the good and the bad that make life interesting.

Take, oh say, Cielo because I'm in the middle of my DDS kick still. He's the most upbeat character in the series generally. He's the one teasing people and playing with people and saying things about how he'll show god his jamming Latin rhythm ja man. But he's also the one saying things like "Can it really be Nirvana if we have to eat people to get there?" and "If I were god, I would have destroyed this crappy world ages ago." He's as tragic as any of the more serious characters, but he believes in facing it with a smile instead of just going woe is me.

Or heck, take Cordelia Vorkosigan (NOT JUST BECAUSE I PLAY HER IN CFUD rly). She's one of my favorite characters of all time, just because she takes utterly terrible tragedies and slogs through them and still finds happiness. And still maintains her sense of humor.

All of my favorite character deal with their tragedies and come out with hope. To me, that's a lot more difficult and a lot more rewarding than just breaking under the weight of it.

[nekokoban]

I'm fairly certain that when I was younger (and by that, I mean "middle school"), I was a lot more enamoured with the idea of angst and dark and destruction and all that generally dreary stuff.

Then I got older! And now it's like, well, I can appreciate darker stories and unhappy endings, and I even like some of them. But they've lost a lot of their fascination and appeal for me; I like the Fake Smile type of character because of the line that blurs between how much of their personality is real or fabricated. I mean, Ginji, from GetBackers? He is one of my favorite characters of all time, because he had a pretty shitty life growing up and was in a fairly awful situation for his own health, staying for the sake of his friends and people he wanted to protect. But he let it go and he's happy with himself and his life; he has his serious and down moments, but he's still positive and upbeat and I like that. I like it so much. T____Tb

There is nothing wrong, I think, in letting characters -- or yourself! -- be happy. Ultimately, I think that's a lot healthier than languishing in the dark and letting that be all you see. >_>

[dyxlisa.livejournal.com]

ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED

Happy characters with hidden depths are my favorites and have been for years and years; man I'm such a sucker for them it's sort of ridiculous. I love making fun of angsty/angry ones. XD; And I think I've even talked about this with you before, but the types of stories I love the most are the ones that can swing between hilarious and happy and horrible awful oh shit. Because the contrast makes the highs and lows even better/more gut wrenching. Also, to me that's more like life...unless I'm like, clinically depressed and on my period or something.

But then, TRAGEDY is ARTEESTIC.

[nekokoban]

HAHA VICTORY /o/

Maybe it's kind of a fangirl cliche to fall for the "happy but secretly not" characters, but it's like they are TOTALLY MADE FOR ME TO LIKE. XD It's really to the point where friends can look at a character description list and say, ah, that's one she likes. 8D

My favorite series, on the whole -- beyond the supernatural/mythological/magic aspect -- tend to be stories that start as lighthearted fluff/comedy, and then PUNCH YOU IN THE GUT when you least expect it, and then take you on the whole rollercoaster back to status quo. I like my happy endings, damnit! o/

[effex]

Consider me in agreement with the entirety of this post - angst just doesn't do it for me, as either a story's major theme or a defining character trait. It's like... [searches for suitably random metaphor] a piece of music that's just one low note, over and over, with maybe some monotone chanting thrown in. Numbing, uninteresting, and guaranteed to drive me away.

Also - and I'm really hoping this doesn't come across as lame bid for attention (I don't know the protocol! Is there protocol?) - I dropped this in your comments about a week ago and want to make sure you got it...

[nekokoban]

Yeeeeeeees, exactly. There are times and places where the droning and monotone can, in fact, be an effective way of telling a story. There's a place for them! But for the most part, my interest in that sort of thing approaches zero. XD

aldjf;lajfd;a I'm pretty sure I DID see it, and then forgot BECAUSE I FAIL with all the distractions from last week, orz. HOWEVER that is kind of super awesome, thank you! ♥♥♥ No matter what the gender, Yumichika is still the prettiest. XDb

[yhibiki.livejournal.com]

Hahhaha, I agree with you that emo characters can be annoying ;) One of the (many) reasons I don't like Sasuke in Naruto. (In fact, I'd say that Sasuke is one of the MAIN REASONS I don't read Naruto anymore.)

And have you noticed that lot of the female characters do that? The "always-apologizing" and OH, it must be my fault! thing. And some big strong guy must teach her to not beat up on herself so much. :/ (Okay, I'm thinking of "Tales of Symphonia" right now, but I'm sure there are more examples than just that.)

[nekokoban]

I ... okay, fair enough, I like Sasuke, but that is because I love making fun of him, haha. /o/ I find him kind of inherently hilarious, to the point where I can't look at him without grinning a bit. XD

And yes, it is a hugely unfortunate trend for female characters to always be apologizing and feeling SOBAD for being such a TERRIBLE PERSON (even as birds land on her shoulders and flowers spring up under her delicate feet) -- it's something you see a lot in romance novels, and it annoys me. But I dislike it when guys do it, too -- in those cases, though, it's usually the fandom cooing over him and going "nono it's okay you're noble and tough and wlu you're awesome" and just ... wtf. XD;

I dunno, it all seems so terribly ... [handwave] pointless, to me, to be angsty, nobly so or not. XD Which is all totally just me, but. XD

[miss-arel.livejournal.com]

Ugh, I'm having flashbacks to almost every English class I've taken ever. XP

I mean, you know me, you know I enjoy good angst from time to time. But I totally agree that angsty does not necessarily = meaningful, and happy =/= frivolous. Only you say it much better. XD

[nekokoban]

I didn't actually have this problem in English! XD It was the creative writing class (ONE), and then just fandom. XD

/me takes a bow XD

[halcyonjazz.livejournal.com]

TRUE ART IS ANGSTY.

But in general, word. I just had a conversation with Muun about how a weak plot/story is infinitely forgiven if it has great characters and a great ending, and a good concept with weak characters and a weak ending seems somehow worse.

Also it being easy to do sad things opposides to happy things: WHY I HARDLY EVER DRAW ANGSTY STUFF. Everyone else is, I figure I can be a unique snowflake, or something.

(Also HAHAHAHAHAHA but I'm just happy that song is getting pimped out)

[nekokoban]

ILU2 I GUESS. :| ♥

Honestly, I can even forgive a weaker ending if the characters are sufficiently awesome -- a weak/open ending means that I can pretend that there's still more to come, and for me, that is always a plus. :D

IN THE END THOUGH I love funny things, or happier things. But I think you already know that, given how much you've heard me go on (and on and on and on GOOD LORD why do you let me talk) before. XD

[chikapus.livejournal.com]

Hi, first of all, would it be okay if I friended you?

I think this is pretty much the reason that Kurogane is one of my favorite Clamp characters. Not only is he the most stable and 'normal' of the cast, but he is not stuck in the past. He's willing to move forward even though he definatly fits the part of 'guy with angsty background'

[nekokoban]

Hello! I don't mind at all; I hope you enjoy the random readings I fling around. :)

I'll be honest in that Fay is my favorite character -- he's the Fake Smile and I'm always weak for those -- but I seriously have a lot of respect for Kurogane after seeing his past, and in terms of just sheer AWESOME, he is my favorite, too. He's kind of exactly what I wish so many angsty characters would do, accepting the horrible things that happened and moving on even if he never forgot.

But then, there's a reason that before Holic and TRC, my favorite CLAMP series was Cardcaptor Sakura. XD

[jpegasus.livejournal.com]

TERRA WE'RE HAPPY PEOPLE ARE WE STUPID?

IT IS THE ONLY EXPLANATION MAYBE? TOO STUPID TO KNOW THAT LIFE IS ACTUALLY ONLY MISERABLE SUFFERING

and two stores that sells only cupcakes ten minutes in either direction from my house!

[nekokoban]

GOSH KIWI WE MUST BE STUPID! WE MUST BE STUPID BECAUSE WE'RE HAPPY, WHAT IS WRONG WITH US.

THE ONLY SOLUTION IS TO LISTEN TO TEENAGED EMO MUSIC UNTIL WE CRY SO HARD OUR MAKEUP RUNS FOREVER.

EVEN IF WE DON'T WEAR MAKEUP.

... oh man, I'm jealous. XD Stores that sell only cupcakes sound magical.

[llyse.livejournal.com]

I like angsty plotlines though not angsty characters so much now. It's how people deal with the rain of angst that gets me, mostly.

Seconded, on the "hidden angst" being win more. Also Ghost Hound has sold me lately on "hidden trauma though not-really-angst", what with its copious amounts of kids that look perfectly normal until they hit some trigger.

[nekokoban]

I don't mind plots that develop into angsty things! I just -- I can't really get interested, nine times out of ten, if there aren't happier moments at the beginning, or scattered throughout. And I have an easier time handling it in short stories than a longer series; there's a point where unrelenting darkness and angst, in plot or characters, exhausts me to keep up with. |D

[grendelity.livejournal.com]

Crap, you're making me flash to a song that I haven't heard in ages. Umm. "I'm happy 'cause I'm stupid / ... / If I wasn't so happy, I wouldn't be so scared of dying." I think. This is going to drive me crazy.

I guess there's a fine line with angst, and it kind of comes down to self-awareness of the character. Like, if the character is, apparently, thinking, "I AM SUFFERING NOBLY ARE THEY WATCHING," then yes, that's contrived and dumb. But when it's a quietly broken character who carries on, unaware of his/her...broken-ness, then that's different, isn't it? Maybe it has to do with the narrator, because it's definitely harder to take angst and stuff when the character dwells on it and rhapsodizes throughout. I personally appreciate the angsty one being someone separate that the narrator observes, etc. Does this make me a hack? Most likely.

And I understand the happy ending vs. rock-bottom ending, but you have to understand that it can be well-done. Obviously, fic-writing and writing class does not a classics period make, but I can only think of the Count of Monte Cristo [...I almost made an inappropriate typo] and how that was so horrifyingly rock bottom for everyone involved, and it made sense for the story. The story's point is that over-the-top revenge and driving people to despair isn't really good for anyone involved and isn't worth it, etc, so it accomplishes some meta, snotty high-class...thesis. Or something. Point is, it can work for the story in question, but I do concede that teen and twenty-somethings playing around and posting fic across the internet aren't exactly emulating Dumas.

[nekokoban]

Self-awareness is a big part of it, yes, but -- honestly, even the quietly-broken character kind of gets to me after a while. I ... don't really believe much in the "nobility of suffering," such as it is; there is almost always a point where I-the-consumer just gets tired of it and yes, do the whole shoulder-whacking-cheer-up-emo-kid thing.

... and I never said that I didn't a well-done rock-bottom ending. I've stated several times that I do understand the appeal and that some stories have to be that way. That doesn't mean I like it as a whole is what I was saying. I know it happens, I know it's done well, but for my tastes -- which is mainly what this post was about -- I prefer not to sample it. I. Please don't lecture me about the necessity or power of a rock-bottom ending, because I get it. I just don't like it.

[secondfish.livejournal.com]

...laaate comment!

But I wanted to emerge from the shadows for a moment to say word. I, uh, I think sometimes people confuse "dealing with serious topics" with "angst!" and there -is- a major difference, which is really in a - metafictional sense, I suppose.

I'll try and put down some kind of coherent response! The thing with the Noble Tragic done badly, or even just sort of indifferently/averagely, is usually not that the self-contained character themselves is GUILTY and QUIETLY SUFFERING but that the world and people around them just sort of...bend to accommodate this! Especially in some fanfiction, I think, the sense that none of the usual laughter or - inappropriateness, really, of life, the way that all kinds of things intrude and intersect on whatever your emotional state is. Or at least on you, as a person, even if you remain miserable; mixing 'bitter' subtly into 'sweet', or wistfulness/nostalgia into a comedy, is pretty par for the course, but I think there's a sense that unhappiness CANCELS ALL.

So it's writing on one note that I object too, and sort of tiptoeing around the 'broken' character. The idea that their trauma sort of radiates off them and adds a constant dignity, and that people either automatically notice and respect them or that their uncaringness just points up how alone. And tragic. And sad the protagonist is. U-unlike you, I don't automatically want to smack them and tell them to cheer up, but I usually want someone around them to do it. XD. Because, you know, others can be inappropriate! Sometimes it stops raining! All of that. And, again, tragedy doesn't automatically render a character intelligent, or wise. It just renders them...someone who's gone through something awful, and has problems! That doesn't result in One Type, or it shouldn't, anyway, but I think the thing gets rendered down to that anyway.

So it's not "suffering", per se, as used in fiction I have a problem with, but the perceived worth of ANY SORT OF TRAUMA, especially piled on the way it can be in comics these days (THIS LEADS TO WOMEN IN REFRIGERATORS AND MAKES ME A SAD FAN) as an instant story-improver. Uh. No. It doesn't work like that. Someone...wrote a really interesting article on PTSD drawing from their own experiences, which I can dig up, by a fan for fans among other things, which contained a section on 'don't fall in love with your beautiful suffering'. The idea that, uh, this makes a character special, this should be clung on to.

I'll also add that I find it really, really strange that it's considered to be a literary achievement to write something to bring all the characters down to rock-bottom, and yet it would be considered pretty weird were someone to write a novel with the express purpose of making everyone as happy as possible at the end, ahaha. I think it's because authors are...meant to want the best for their characters? So if a weird/deus ex machina kind of plot device turns up and completely screws everyone over, it's not considered half as implausible as when something turns up to help them, because one is seen as the author stepping in to SAVE THEIR BELOVEDS and the other as reflecting the sudden horror of real life. Et cetera.

And I have nothing at all against sad stories, and actually most of my absolute favourite books are -incredibly- depressing, but I think both are valid, and that it is a really odd cultural paradigm. In conclusion, word! Tl;dr word, but nevertheless.

....also, walking past a Baptist church today and brooding over these complex thoughts, I saw a sign on the door saying "JELLYBEANS CANCELLED". Which I suppose sums it up.

[nekokoban]

Late comments are okay too! *g* It's not like there's an expiration date on this LJ.

I would definitely agree with you here -- writing serious/heavy material (at least in fandom) is one of those cases where I think authorial intent becomes a lot more obvious. On a meta scale, I'm much more likely to be kind of off-put by a fic where I know the author is TRYING for sweeping! drama! angst! and suchlike; it's one thing to say "I feel like this story had to be this way, so I tried to do that," but it's another to essentially go, "but this is THE ONLY WAY TO TELL A STORY TO MAKE IT HAVE MERIT" and then apply it to ... all fiction. There are other schools of thought on that, certainly, but I just ... have a really hard time taking it seriously when an author tries to be dramatic and angsty or conflicted with everything they write. Fiction, for me, isn't just about escapism -- it's another way for the writer to express her/himself, and life isn't always about the big sweeping things, or even the little tragic things. Sometimes, it's just about going to the store and watching the birds fly away and thinking about what a nice day it's been.

My biggest beef with the Noble Tragic, honestly, is how the world/characters accomodate (that's a good word for it!) their suffering. People rush to fawn or admire them for their stewing in their regret and their grief, and hell: that's not healthy in real life. That's not going to be healthy for a fictional character, either. People have triggers, certainly, and the fascination/frustration of humanity is that there's no real way to predict them. Triggers can be stupid and irrational and it's not anyone's fault that they react -- but it becomes skeevy, I think, when that gets coddled and even praised in a backhanded sort of way. You get this a lot with fandom's treatment of Noble Tragics, I think; they rush to go "Oh, woobie" and bandaid it better, which is all well and good -- but I very rarely find myself drawn to the sort.

(And, okay, fair: when I say "I" want to smack them a bit, I usually mean "I-in-the-vehicle-of-a-character" which is possibly a bit self-insert-y, but I try to refrain most of the time. *g*)

Part of me resents, I think, the perception that you're only a deep and intelligent character if you've seen or done horrible things, or suffered through a terrible past. I resent the implication this casts on real people, too, because I've known people who've had terrible lives and are still about as irritating and shallow as you can get, and I know people who've lead ordinary comfortable lives who're a lot more profound than I think I could ever be. I also don't like to think that I'm stupid, admittedly -- I'm not the brightest, but I'm not stupid, even if my life has been pretty damn awesome thus far. "Don't fall in love with your beautiful suffering," though, I like that. I don't want to make it sound like I'm saying characters shouldn't suffer, or that they should always be happy -- I just don't like the idea that it's better when they are cut down and taken apart and not allowed even a breather before it all goes wrong.

When I write original fiction, I write with the idea that I would like to have a happy ending. Whether it actually happens is another story altogether.

... man. I'm not terribly fond of Baptists (a certain branch of them has sort of soured my thoughts on them all), but cancelling jellybeans?! The fiends! :(