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Today, my father and I discovered the use of our digital camera -- its purpose, it seems, is to be around to take embarrassing photos of my mother, lying on the couch with ground-up cucumber on her face. XD Really, now. XD
Anyway, my LJ paid account expires today. Thank you again,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
jyuu_chan for buying me the two months♥♥♥♥♥♥ I will miss the extra iconage, I admit, but at least I still have my penguins♥♥ I had fun with my time, and now I'll say goodbye to the paid world~~~ XD
Also, downloaded and just finished watching Fullmetal Alchemist episode 43.
Now, I gotta admit -- I know a lot of people who were sort of "meh" for a large chunk in the middle, and while I was sort of like that, I mostly wasn't. This is seriously, in my opinion, one of the best stories I've seen in a long time, and there's just something nice about a quasi-wartime story that has its lighter moments, but doesn't actually shy away from the whole GOOD PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS, and vice-versa. I love how Ed is portrayed as a very failiable and sometimes weak human being, while still being strong enough to have survived his own horrible mistakes and still come out fighting for it.
Now, pretty much from the beginning -- my friends who've been in the fandom with me a long time -- I've had this peculiar fascination for the Elric parents, Hoenheim in particular. I've just watched episode 43, and he seems like a genuinely good guy -- a bit absent-minded, a bit out of date and goofy, but a good guy. This isn't someone you could picture deliberately leaving his wife and two young sons and then ignoring letters talking about Trisha's illness. The fact that he had to ask Winry how long Trisha's been dead indicates that there's a good chance those letters Ed and Al sent actually never reached him.
At the same time, Winry is probably Al's age, a year younger than Ed. The fact that Hoenheim keeps mistaking her for her mother, and the things the Ouroborous have implied about "that guy" -- and from Envy's rant, I'd say it's pretty damn obvious he's talking about Hoenheim -- you've got to wonder. Is the nice-guy thing a facade, that he's using to lull his sons into a false sense of security and into trusting him (though I wonder, truly, if Ed even can at this point) -- or was he, like Ed and Al, a good person who made some horrible mistakes, though perhaps on a grander scale?
The manga, at this point, has all but said that Hoenheim is the "Father" of the Ouroborous, and what we've seen of him isn't pleasant at all. In the manga, just from what I've seen, he comes across as a cold and calculating sort, with no mercy or kindness. He appears to be the kind of man Ed expects him to be -- an uncaring bastard who abandoned his family without a second thought.
At this point, we don't really know what Hoenheim's motives are, in either the anime or the manga. It could very well turn out that the pleasant attitude is just a mask, and that he's no different from his manga-self, under the surface. The manga-self could have some kind of noble ideal backing him -- one of my theories was perhaps that Hoenheim knew Trisha was ill (in the anime, at least, they say she must have been sick a very long time and hid the pain for years), and left to find the Philosopher's Stone to create a cure for her, and was corrupted by the search along the way.
Of course, there are vague implications here and there that Hoenheim is MUCH older than a human could be (like Dante, in the anime; if she ressurected Greed, but Greed's been sealed over a hundred years -- it lends to curiousity, how the two stories should intersect and tie together). I know in the manga, at least, there are still some theories that Hoenheim will be Pride, the last of the Ouroborous, and given how old the Ouroborus are implied to be, this could very well be the case.
The beautiful thing is the not knowing, though -- I want to know, I sure as well would love to have the secrets explained and the rationlizations given. I'd like Hoenheim to be a nice guy -- it's too late for him to give back anything to his sons, but at least there's the comfort of knowing he isn't evil. But I like the concept of him as a sick and twisted bastard, too, an "evil" character with selfish motives. (Because one can argue that in FMA there's no truly evil character; I'd say Envy comes the closest, but I also think Envy's bugfuck nuts, which doesn't excuse, but at least explains his attitude.)
Alternately, I've been thinking about this too damn much. XD But I freaking LOVE this series, man, and next week's episode is 「光のホーエンヘイム」 which just makes me excited because we're gonna learn MORE yay and eek what's going to happen NEXT and DUDE, what's going to happen to Lust? O___O
It's great, man. Love this show. XD
Anyway, my LJ paid account expires today. Thank you again,
jyuu_chan for buying me the two months♥♥♥♥♥♥ I will miss the extra iconage, I admit, but at least I still have my penguins♥♥ I had fun with my time, and now I'll say goodbye to the paid world~~~ XDAlso, downloaded and just finished watching Fullmetal Alchemist episode 43.
Now, I gotta admit -- I know a lot of people who were sort of "meh" for a large chunk in the middle, and while I was sort of like that, I mostly wasn't. This is seriously, in my opinion, one of the best stories I've seen in a long time, and there's just something nice about a quasi-wartime story that has its lighter moments, but doesn't actually shy away from the whole GOOD PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS, and vice-versa. I love how Ed is portrayed as a very failiable and sometimes weak human being, while still being strong enough to have survived his own horrible mistakes and still come out fighting for it.
Now, pretty much from the beginning -- my friends who've been in the fandom with me a long time -- I've had this peculiar fascination for the Elric parents, Hoenheim in particular. I've just watched episode 43, and he seems like a genuinely good guy -- a bit absent-minded, a bit out of date and goofy, but a good guy. This isn't someone you could picture deliberately leaving his wife and two young sons and then ignoring letters talking about Trisha's illness. The fact that he had to ask Winry how long Trisha's been dead indicates that there's a good chance those letters Ed and Al sent actually never reached him.
At the same time, Winry is probably Al's age, a year younger than Ed. The fact that Hoenheim keeps mistaking her for her mother, and the things the Ouroborous have implied about "that guy" -- and from Envy's rant, I'd say it's pretty damn obvious he's talking about Hoenheim -- you've got to wonder. Is the nice-guy thing a facade, that he's using to lull his sons into a false sense of security and into trusting him (though I wonder, truly, if Ed even can at this point) -- or was he, like Ed and Al, a good person who made some horrible mistakes, though perhaps on a grander scale?
The manga, at this point, has all but said that Hoenheim is the "Father" of the Ouroborous, and what we've seen of him isn't pleasant at all. In the manga, just from what I've seen, he comes across as a cold and calculating sort, with no mercy or kindness. He appears to be the kind of man Ed expects him to be -- an uncaring bastard who abandoned his family without a second thought.
At this point, we don't really know what Hoenheim's motives are, in either the anime or the manga. It could very well turn out that the pleasant attitude is just a mask, and that he's no different from his manga-self, under the surface. The manga-self could have some kind of noble ideal backing him -- one of my theories was perhaps that Hoenheim knew Trisha was ill (in the anime, at least, they say she must have been sick a very long time and hid the pain for years), and left to find the Philosopher's Stone to create a cure for her, and was corrupted by the search along the way.
Of course, there are vague implications here and there that Hoenheim is MUCH older than a human could be (like Dante, in the anime; if she ressurected Greed, but Greed's been sealed over a hundred years -- it lends to curiousity, how the two stories should intersect and tie together). I know in the manga, at least, there are still some theories that Hoenheim will be Pride, the last of the Ouroborous, and given how old the Ouroborus are implied to be, this could very well be the case.
The beautiful thing is the not knowing, though -- I want to know, I sure as well would love to have the secrets explained and the rationlizations given. I'd like Hoenheim to be a nice guy -- it's too late for him to give back anything to his sons, but at least there's the comfort of knowing he isn't evil. But I like the concept of him as a sick and twisted bastard, too, an "evil" character with selfish motives. (Because one can argue that in FMA there's no truly evil character; I'd say Envy comes the closest, but I also think Envy's bugfuck nuts, which doesn't excuse, but at least explains his attitude.)
Alternately, I've been thinking about this too damn much. XD But I freaking LOVE this series, man, and next week's episode is 「光のホーエンヘイム」 which just makes me excited because we're gonna learn MORE yay and eek what's going to happen NEXT and DUDE, what's going to happen to Lust? O___O
It's great, man. Love this show. XD
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From:
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Idly -- I, too, like the idea of a Nice Hoenheim, but I think they've dropped just too many hints so far that he might NOT be. The fact that Envy hates him but isn't acting out against HIM, the fact that Dante (who, as you've pointed out, has a story that doesn't match up) suggested that the Elric Brothers go to him, the fact that he showed up to talk to Winry in Rizenbul not long after Sloth encountered Winry and called her Ed and Al's mother... even the fact that the military was looking for him for undisclosed reasons, and that the sins acknowledge him on some level but focus on Ed and Al (presumably as younger and more easy to manipulate) even though it's public knowledge at this point that Hoenheim was looking for the stone.
I DO think he might have BEEN a good guy who went down the wrong path, and at least partly because this story doesn't pull punches. I also think he might be perfectly capable of pretending to be that way and just be cold, calculating, and their for his own purposes -- even not as Pride himself, I get the feeling that Hoenheim is the one who made most of the Sins and has control over them, especially in light of Sloth (...and the time inconsistancies there... ) Especially in the anime, we know that Wrath was the only one who made it through the door *without help*, because Envy commented on it... And Wrath was very much made up of Hoeneheim's bloodline.
I suspect I'm gonna run out of room in this comment, but one of the reasons I am deeply fond of Hoenheim as Pride is the biblical/luciferian overtones, ESPECIALLY since his title is 光のホーエンヘイム -- Hoenheim of Light. Lucifer is a Latin title for an angel who scholars have tried for years to identify -- it literally means "Light-Bringer", the one who bears light. Lucifer is also equated almost always with the sin of Pride, because it was through Pride that the fall happened -- it wasn't because he wanted to become God, as most people say, but because God ordered angels to serve humans, and he didn't think that was the order it should go in and rebelled (Which, actually, I find interesting if he DID make the Homunculus). So it was through the sin of Pride that Lucifer fell, and that's one of the big reasons that it's said Pride is the Father of All Sins. (which I feel will still be relevant in the manga. XD)
But even if they don't go that route, I think especially with the fact that they included a character called *Dante* (who will is, of course, the guide through hell) and simply titling him 'Hoenheim of Light' at all (and I believe Hoenheim means something like 'archchancellor'?) ...I think there's deliberate Luciferian overtones even in the anime. And if he seems nice now, I don't trust it to be his true self, partly because of the things we've heard throughout the series and partly because the devil has *always* been an alluring figure in biblical lore (ie, he was able to tempt Christ, though Christ could resist it; it's been said that "even the devil can quote scripture") ...
Yeah. Hoenheim is an INTERESTING character. Very, very interesting. I'm so excited to see what'll be done with him and OMG MORE NOW KTHX XD
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Thanks for pointing out all those Luciferian overtones, that probably would not have occurred to me. Something to think about while I wait for the next episode . . .
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+_+ I may go nuts first. XD;;;
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I do question, actually, if the Ouroborous are focusing on Ed and Al as "easier targets," or if it might have something to do with Hoenheim's directions. We know Envy's got some massive restntment build up towards Hoenheim, and that sort of thing doesn't come from trying to win over a guy to do your dirty work and being constantly rebuffed -- whatever connection Hoenheim has with the Sins, I think it's a LOT more than has been said thus far.
Really, I'm thinking about Majihal at this point; he started out simply wanting to keep the likeness of his loved one close by, and grew so corrupted by the desperation of that love that he was killing young girls and refused to see the aged Karen as who she once was. And it'd be really interesting, I think, to see them take on the idea of Hoenheim having a duality of good intentions/bad actions and how Ed and Al will react to that.
Given Arakawa's amount of research, I wouldn't be surprised at all if manga!Hoenheim still turns out to be Pride (since in the anime, they've never actually called him "Father," but there have been references to "that person"). On top of that, anime!Pride does seem to be in charge more than Lust was, so we'll have to see how that pans out. >_>
Man, this series is so good♥ I have great happiness that I have the connection speed to get the raws AND the comprehension to understand chunks of it while watching. XD I WANT IT TO BE NEXT WEEK YO.
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I do question, actually, if the Ouroborous are focusing on Ed and Al as "easier targets," or if it might have something to do with Hoenheim's directions. We know Envy's got some massive restntment build up towards Hoenheim, and that sort of thing doesn't come from trying to win over a guy to do your dirty work and being constantly rebuffed -- whatever connection Hoenheim has with the Sins, I think it's a LOT more than has been said thus far.
Oh yeah, DEFINATELY. o.o I think I sort of meant that IF Hoenheim is a nice guy, we know he at least didn't fold to the sins, so either they're focussing on Ed and Al, or..... yeahhhh. Either way, I do think Hoenheim intends something for his sons, especially, I confess, as he's showing up so near the final movement of the series. XD XD
GOOD point with majihal -- and I was rewatching that episode yesterday, and majihal does, in fact, TELL Ed and Al that they're just like their father in the fact that they won't help him affix the soul to the dolls. Which... I'm sure is significant on some level, especially with the 'dead beautiful young lover' aspect... You could well be right, y'know? And I really, really want to see that.
(I feel, just from what I've heard/seen, that manga!Pride is almost certainly Hoenheim -- but I still have questions about anime!Pride, considering that ther'es at least one scene where Sloth's giving orders to the sins and covers the phone as anime!Pride passes, waiting until he's gone before continuing...)
EEE. [tries to spur Spoon into action.] I repeat: EEEE.
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Well, we know Hoenheim has a marked interest in the Stone; it's been mentioned in both anime and manga that his name is associated with it. I still think Envy's hatred of Hoenheim goes beyond constant rebuffing, but I could easily see it as simply Hoenheim fighting back against them to a point where they perhaps lost more resources/leads/whatevers than they could afford, and that setback is what makes Envy so furious. (SO desperately wanting ep44 -- Ed and Hoenheim confrontation EEEEEEE.)
[coughs] Well, there's the interpretation we took, where Hoenheim made Sloth before Ed and Al could (to account for the weird time discrepencies), and I mean, if you've got a living breathing homunculus that looks/sounds like your missing lover, why do you need a soul in a doll? XD;;;; But more seriously, this series LIKES bringing back old themes/characters it's introduced anime-only (i.e., Layla going from such a minor one-shot to, like, this gigantic vaguely creepy orchestrator), so who knows if the "lesson" from Majihal is going to be restated or not, in Hoenheim and Trisha and Sloth. >_>
(Yeaaaah, I STILL think manga!Pride is Hoenheim, because of the whole "Father of [all] sins" bit you've mentioned before, and while we've seen his profile and the lower half of his face, we've not seen anywhere the mark might be located, if indeed he has it. And you've got an interesting point about anime!Pride; at least in recent episodes, he's been frighteningly ruthless at times, but the fact that Sloth was trying to "hide" her conversation with Envy from him may indicate something as well -- though, alternately, it could've been her checking to make sure it WAS him, and not some random reporting soldier/secretary.)
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Envy... I don't know that I'd say he's the most truly evil of the sins in the anime -- I think he'd come CLOSE. I have to question Pride, because for all that I'm a big fan of (character spoiler) and I love him and want to give him big gooshy hugs and eat watermelon and all that, I'm not sure that Pride himself isn't putting on a genial facade. Of course, Envy doesn't BOTHER to put on that facade, and the fact that Envy almost never stops smiling, ESPECIALLY when he's angry or upset, freaks me out. I'd be totally willing to go with "Envy = EVIL YO" at least until I've seen MORE from Pride to swing me one way or the other. (I have a friend who says that the most just thing she can think of to happen to Envy is that he GETS his humanity back, realizes what he's done, and has to try to live with that.)
re: Hoenheim and the stones -- OH yeah. Rewatching early episodes, and y'know, they snuck a mention of him into almost every one of the first few episodes? It might not have been MUCH of one but he was referred to a HELL of a lot early on, and just yeahhhhh. There's something up. One thing that interested me in rewatching was that there were some hints that Hoenheim may have left for the war (the timing for one thing (which even Al remarks on, because Winry's parents having gone to war lines up with his father leaving), and the fact that we see Trisha watching soldiers walk past, sadly) but we ALSO get hints that Hoenheim left on some alchemical quest for knowledge and ...yes.
I wouldn't be surprised if the lesson from Majihal WERE reinstated -- Ed already brought him up once in REALLY recent episodes, which I think may have been to refresh the viewers minds about him as much as anything else.
(About anime!Pride -- You're right, it's inconclusive, but the fact that she didn't just check that it was him but *waited* until he'd crossed the room slowly and shut himself in his study, THEN spoke again, and after she was done we had a shot of him brooding over a drink, iirc -- It doesn't TELL me anything but it sure makes me suspicious.)
Man, I love rambling with this stuff with you. *_________*
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See, given what's happened in the episodes you've not seen yet (... er >_>), it's entirely possible you're right in your postulation about Pride; ye gods and fishes know he's pretty damn scary, at certain parts. o_o And you know, you're right about Envy, too -- I mean, I'm mostly going back what I can remember about earlier episodes, but even when he's angry or upset, he's still got his teeth gritted and bared in this, like parody skull-grin. ICK. Though I question that, even if Envy DOES get the humanity he claims, he'd ever have the balance and presence of mind to really understand the magnitude of what he's done; he's envy, and I don't know if changing the nature of his body/life would change his personality.
I know at some point before summer's over (and this, note, is the ONLY reason I hope that the series is 50 episodes, rather than 52 -- because, yeah, guess when I go back to school? THE WEEK BEFORE THE LAST EPISODE, and BT connections at my school suck XD;), I plan on marathoning the whole thing again, so I'll have to keep an eye out for that. I know in the manga, I get the impression he just sort of left, though maybe the timing is right for it; then again ... Winry remembers her parents, I felt, whereas even Ed doesn't really remember his father at that point. I know you've got the theory that Winry may be older than Ed, but I sort of wonder about that, since, at least in the flashbacks, I actually get the impression that she's younger than him, at least. I wonder, since Roy mentions looking for a deserter -- I'd have to go back and rewatch, but it might've been a mistranslation, or it might've been just that. And if Hoenheim WAS a State Alchemist, it would explain why he left -- then again, that could just be something he told Trisha as an "excuse" for when he left; it's hard to say just yet.
Then again, given the nature of this series, and how it pulls off so many layers of symbolism -- the fact Ed's bringing Majihal up again, even briefly, could very well end up with more than just a "oh, remember that guy? Yeah, the man who played with dolls? His life sucked, didn't it? Glad we're not like him; moving on" sort of thing.
In context of what Sloth was possibly telling/not-telling anime!Pride, it's entirely likely that the new degree of ruthlessness we're seeing is, in some fashion, a way to prove himself to the "lesser" sins (because, you know, pride) -- sort of like an alpha display of strength, possibly to show those lower on the ranks "I'm not to be messed with," and the one HIGHER, "I am still your loyal and capable servant." I WANT EPISODE 44 SO BADLY. XO
[squish] I love doing this too♥ Haru, she indulges my desire to taaaaaaaalk and talk and talk. XD
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Pride... freaks me out. A lot. XD; I like that character more on a personal note how he appears in the manga (he's COOL in both, but I think I'd get ALONG with manga!that character in a way I wouldn't with anime!Pride!). But...yeah. The reason I found out the Envy Grinning Thing was that Kels wanted to make an icon of pissedoff Envy and the only time we *hear* him really upset... (We weren't made, we were born!) he's offscreen, and when the camera cuts back, he's still doing the giant grin thing. [shivers]
I agree that Winry remembers her parents -- but different people DO remember things differently (and if she WAS older when they left, that might also make sense) and I think she'd also be a lot more willing to *hear* stories about them than Ed (and Al, by 'not wanting to go against his brother's wishes' thingie) would be about his father, so she might appear to remember more than she *actually* remembers, too. I'm not sure they ever do say that Hoenheim is a deserter -- just that the military's looking for him, and with the implications of Trisha watching soldiers, I thought it hinted at it. And yeah -- Trisha's not an unbiased character about Hoenheim, any more tan Ed is.
...xD Yes. It's true. FMA likes to do the unexpected.
[nods] I can see that, the proving himself thing. Creepy, but it makes SENSE. I WANT EPISODE 41! AIEE!
[snuggle]s YAY for talk!
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In the anime, Envy is the one who lets us see how a homunculus (a 'created man') becomes a sin -- by eating these red placenta crystals, right? I was just thinking how this totally mimicked the fall of man from the garden of eden... You know, they were tempted into eating the forbidden fruit by the snake in the garden, and once they did, they were a) aware of good and evil, and b) ashamed of their nudity because they recognized it as inherantly sexualized. The original sin is the sexual sin (And, interesting, Lust is the first sin we see on screen) and it's sex -- all children are gotten from sex, so all children are inherantly tainted by original sin (and lots of other things I don't personally believe).
So the placenta stones? Yeah, they're the fault of the red water, but they can't be made without pregnancy, which also comes from sex. So I'm not sure where I'm going from this, except that in some ways, the placenta stones might seem to tie into the ghastly concept of original sin.
Above and beyond that, though, when we see Anime Wrath -- he's totally innocent. I mean, before he's Wrath. He's just this complete innocent, with no knowledge of good and evil (as demonstrated as trying to 'play' with the mouse), but when he eats the placenta stones (which, if nothing else, are still twisted fruits of the womb) he gains knowledge of what's good, and what's evil, but his actions from there on are sinful ones.
Again, like, when A and E were kicked out of the garden of eden, it wasn't because they understood good and evil, but because God was afraid they'd eat from the tree of immortality next and "become like unto gods". So in some ways, it WAS an inherantly envious concept, and in other ways, it relates back interestingly to the Homunculus, who are CURRENTLY immortal and understanding good and evil (in other words, 'like unto gods') but who WANT to be human.
...Plus, I dunno if I'm crazy, but in episode 1, with Cornello? I got the impression that the red snake we saw briefly before he woke up and talked to Lust was Envy. PARTLY it's because I've heard the feeling of envy/jealousy referred to as 'the serpent's poison' and partly just because we know all three of them were THERE but we only saw Lust and Gluttony until Cornello got offed.
...so I'm not sure where I'm going with this, other than envy = snake in garden of eden = tempting innocent 'created' men (as Adam and Eve were) into eating something forbidden = the created men become sinful and aware of evil
...with an added tone of "What if they HAD eaten from the fruit of Immortality -- what might they have to do to return back?"
Or I'm crazy and a literary student looking for stuff to natter on about. XD
From:
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I wondered what was up with that snake . .. they never came back to it. But in my mind the snake represented Lust, not Envy, simply because snakes have very feminine associations going back to Neolithic times. And also cos people whose totems are snakes end to be REALLY sexy.
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(Snakes are also healing and infinity and etc etc. XD More than anything, it's probably equated with the search for the philosopher's stone, especially as the Flamel is the crucified snake. But...)
I don't think we can KNOW, really, just... make theories.
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Now, personally, I still think that the snake Cornello saw in his dream was more of his own subconscious speaking -- we don't know what kind of effect the false Stone might have been having on him (because Magwar seemed balanced enough, but look at how nutso he went once he had enough of the Red Water stones) -- I mean, he's the only one we've seen the false Stone rebound THAT badly on. Then again, you're right in that Envy had to be SOMEWHERE in the city, just we don't know where.
The interesting thing with Anime!Wrath is that, even now fully aware of what happened to him, and his choices in the situation (I wonder if the Red Water stones, made the way they were, wouldn't retain some of the toxic qualities the water itself had, thus lending itself to Wrath losing it), he STILL seems to maintain some clinging to the mother-son bond. When Ed tries to attack Sloth, Wrath flips out and shrieks DON'T TOUCH THAT PERSON!, to the point where he leaves off trying to kill Rose and her crying baby (who triggered memories in him of when he was put back through the gate).
Greed, I think, was the only Homonculus that wanted true immortality, and he wanted it beyond simply just going on; I think there was the implication that he didn't want the weakness that his tied mortal remains presented to him. And it's interesting because he still seems to me that he's the "nicest" (alternately, the "most human") of the Sins -- as much as any of them can be called nice -- because his people followed him out of true loyalty rather than intimidation.
.. man, your intelligence > mine. XD SO not my area of expertise that I stumble and fall, and it's always interesting to hear you ramble off, don't worry♥
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re: the snake -- It COULD well be his own subconcious, especially the way it's rearing up to bite him, and the image of the orouborus is one that he's seen already on Lust's chest. I'm not exactly sure WHY I got the "!!! Is that ENVY?!" feeling from it, except that I know he's got to be there somewhere, but we get no hint of it until he takes Cornello's form. XD I'm fairly sure I'm reading way too much into this, though.
Whoa, the thought that the partial stones might still be toxic... CREEPY. But I LIKE that -- becaues they ARE, in some level, corrupting the homunculi who take them, and... whoa. o.o And yeah -- I love how whenever it's the *closest* bond -- in fact, the person who tried to bring them back -- there's some recognition. For Lust, it's the Lover, for Wrath, it's the Mother, and for Sloth, it's the Children. HUH.
[nods] I find it SO VERY FASCINATING that the 'most human' of the sins is the one who wants to be human the least, and the least human ones of them are the one who want to be it the most. [flails] It's very symbolic of the 'humans are such a gray area' thing, no black or white, and... yeah. [flails]
Dude, my intelligence is SO not greater than yours, what're you talking about?? One of the reasons I posted that here is 'cause I knew you'd have something to say in return and, lo, you did -- I've got the talent to BS connections, but you NOTICE things. Okay? Nyah. [noogies]
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Like you said, though -- the Stones in a way seem to parallel the apple that the Snake used to tempt Eve, and it would be interesting, to me, if this one thing that Ed and Al seem to have focused on as the ultimate panacea might turn out to be dangerous and corruptive in a slightly different form (this happens in real life chemistry too, so it's entirely possible -- oxygen is O2, necessary to human life, but O3, still the same element, is ozone and toxic in large amounts). And the thing that interests me most is that, at least in the people we KNOW have tried the transmutation and failed (as Chira pointed out), they seem to lose body parts corresponding to the TYPE of person they're trying to ressurect: your mother gives you your body, and is your support -- Al loses his entire body, Ed his leg. Your brother will be your "right hand," by your side; Ed loses his arm for Al's soul. You carry your child in the womb; Izumi loses her internal organs. You have sex with your lover, and it's fairly implicative that Scar's brother was, in effect, castrated by his failed experiment.
I'm also interested in the fact that, well -- I've always kind of thought of lust as a very human sin/emotion. It can twist people, make them appear inhuman and frightening, but in the end, it's a very basic and base human response; and the way Lust's transformation during the series -- going from appearing to be the mastermind to humanized and weakened -- parallels this fascinates me. I want Hoenheim-Ed confrontation, but I REALLY want to see what's going to happen to her, now she's let Ed and Al go.
I do not notice things! XD; I think so slowly and have to say it in the most ponderous and roundabout LONG-WINDED way possible, anything I might've seen first has probably already been said, like, fifty gajillion times before, ah. XD I'm glad for debate when I can get it though, so thank you♥
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That was an entirely off topic ramble as my brain sprang off along your theory, and I've totally forgotten where I was, so I'm just gonna move onto the next part? XD Oh wait, right, yeah, Cornello the religious figure -- Agreed, and didn't think of that at ALL.
[nods] I had hints Scar's brother was castrated when I saw the white scarring that scene we saw him naked, but I think it gave us biiig proof with the bloody pants and... yeah. That's so symbolic... off topic again (my mind jumped from "I wonder what body parts the people who raised the other sins are missing!), but I wonder who tried to raise the other sins. They're probably dead by now, but.. (And on that note -- what did DANTE lose? She created a homunculus, so she has to have FAILED at human transmutation, but...)
[nods] You're right about lust -- I mean, I think the SIN of lust is supposed to be, like gluttony, about *over*-indulging... but fact is that it's been condemned by so many religious figures that it's ended up being that the NATURAL impulse of lust is condemned as a sin. And so... Yeah, I DO find that humanizing of lust VERY very symbolic and interesting -- actually, you know what always struck me as weird? Lust is the only sin we ever see wearing an outfit that's not her sin!Outfit. She wears this white peasant dress (and it doesn't look like it's OVER her outfit) when talking to Magwar. I took screencaps if you want them.
BAH. You do TOO notice things, and you said so many things here that I hadn't even THOUGHT about, so... [NOOGIES] And thank YOU for the debate!
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[laughs] My friends and I didn't make the castration connection at first, though there was a LOT of "uhhh ... wow, wonder how HE tans himself" comments going on when he wandered out naked and with that large white patch. XD And you know, given my theory about Dante = Lila? And how Dante being alivecan't match with her raising Greed, who's been sealed for over a hundred years? It could very well be she lost something so important in the original body she switched her awareness -- in essence, the ORIGINAL Dante would be missing something related to raising Greed, but because of the theory of her soul-hopping, these NEW bodies she's hosted in obviously are not missing whatever it was. Does that make sense?
[nods] I mean, okay, the hallmark of the "Sin" outfit seems to be black, with the red circles with their 'veins' going down arms or other limbs. We've finally seen Sloth in her outfit (which looks very similiar to Lust's, by the by), but -- we know Greed wears something completely unrelated to that, and anime!Pride (though that's probably as much out of necessity, being who/what he is) -- but, yeah. Lust has worn other things -- and when she goes to meet Marcoh, she's wearing that fur-lined coat, and then I want to say she was wearing other stuff when she was working with the Koyasu character, though I forget what. XD;
It's interesting, damnit. I really want to see how it'll pan out with her -- she remembers a lot of herself, now (she even asks Scar a few pointed questions about her past life), and it's obviously weakening her, which the Sins can't seem to allow at this point -- I really want to know how it'll gooooooo. ToT
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(I think the Koyasu character had a two-syllable name. >_< Can't remember it, though.) And you're right- I mean, of course ROy needs the gloves, since he's got his spark-array on it, but Yikes. The gloves might well be a shield as well as a weapon in that case. [thinks] Huh. It works disturbingly well.
[laughs at the tan thing] See, I almost thought that, but it was so distinct, and SCAR's scar went white, so I thought...yeah. XD And, oh yeah, you mentioned the Dante thing! (Though if *I* were the god of Alchemy, i'd be cheesed and think that was cheating a bit.) It makes sense with the NAME Dante, though, as the guide through the underworld -- The name is *inherantly* referring to someone who passes through death without touching it.
About the hallmark sin outfit -- Doesn't Greed's 'real' form (the monstrous one) also have the 'vein' markings? And Lust's -- when she's wearing th efur coat, she has her sin outfit on underneath (you can see her gloves and stuff), and with the Koyasu character, she DOES juts wear the sin outfit (I know, because Cyth remarked on it when we watched that episode, so I watched for it) XD but... I'm pretty sure she's not wearing the sin outfit under the one in Magwar's mines and I'm ont sure why that stands out to me ,because she's still definately the sin there. XD
It IS interesting [flails] I WANT 41!!!
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And yeah, granted, I was one of those people who had a bit of that 'meh' response in the middle, but the recent developments are driving me BATTY with OH YOU BITCHES YOU DO NOT FUCKING STOP THERE >EEEEEEEEEE
XD
(Also, I'm probably a bit nutty here, but I kept squeaking fannishly over Roy in this episode. EEEEEEEEEEE.)
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(There's nothing wrong with fanning Roy in this episode. OMG he was so damn cool, even when he was in wet angry puppy mode. XD XD XD Plus, you know, everything coming out into the open and Ed GRINNING and yeah. XD XD)
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*squishes him* I can't WAIT for next week's ep yo.
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I WANT NEXT WEEK'S EPISODE SO BADLY. :O The part of the preview where they imply Ed punched Hoenheim -- SO saw that in my head, SO want to see if the rest matches, too. X3
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Anyways... what I really replied about. Hoenheim. One of the first things that popped into my head was that he came back just as the brothers got the Philosophers Stone. I am thinking he was bound to that in some way or possibly sealed by it. To me he seems like a person that has been out of touch for a while, kind of like a coma person or a person with memory loss. He seems nice and all but there is something off. And he does seem like a good guy I agree. No bad guy vibes at all. At first I didn't even think it was him since I was expecting him to be a bad guy after Envy's little speach. But then again, Envy is nuts and evil so for him to hate someone who did something the limit him/them or hurt them in any way might spark that kind of anger. Especially if he used sneakyness to do it, something we have seen Ed do quite naturally in the past. And Ed is supposed to be much like his father, at least as I see it. Just imagine Ed with a hundred years of experience in being sneaky and the picture gets scary. But then again. I have only seen the anime, not read a letter of the manga.
43 was a great episode though. And Winry/Sciezka, yay!
Another thing, Roy in this episode only fortifies how good you and Haru pictured him in Housewarming. I like.
Sorry for commenting out of the blue, but, but the puppy made me do it. *points to small golden-red puppy on floor*
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Re: Another point...
You know, I like the idea of Hoenheim being in some kind of stasis/coma, which might explain his age, his mistaking Winry for her mother, and NO ONE seeing him for so many years. (We know in the manga, for example, Hoenheim's moving around actively, because Izumi meets him in Central, around the same time Winry comes to fix Ed's broken arm.) I think it is telling, in a way, that he reappears RIGHT after Al becomes the Stone, and RIGHT after Winry recognizes Sloth as looking exactly like Trisha Elric.
Honestly, I've really wanted Hoenheim to be a good guy, because I have this huge fondness for Trisha, and would like to think the guy she died waiting for isn't all that bad. But I expected him to be less-than-benign with Envy's spiel; Envy's crazy and ruthless, but I feel like there's a genuine anger and hatred towards Hoenheim which has to go beyond Hoenheim merely tricking him; I seriously think it's got something to do with Envy's insistence that they were born, not made.
Winry/Schieska, omgtheirloveissojock/bookworm! XD No, not really, but they get along awfully well, and I'd say that they're probably clooose to the same age.
[grins] Hey, wow, I'm glad you liked "Housewarming," and I'm glad new developments in Roy's character hasn't thrown "our" Roy too OOC or skewed. ♥♥♥♥ Seriously, I don't mind out-of-the-blue comments at all; discussions are always welcome, in this little corner of LJ-land. XD
(OMG PUPPY. Um. I like cats and dogs equally, but am more allergic to cats and therefore PUPPY YAY. XD)
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Re: Another point...
There could be memeory loss as well as an explanation of Hoenheim's state of mind, but that gives no explanation to the age thing. I am currently leaning toward stasis myself.
You might be right about Envy. That was my first reaction as well, but then I realized that he is evil and crazy. I don't know. This series has a tendency to humanize the bad guys (Scar!) even if they are ruthless bastards.
Winry/Sciezka - Yeah, that pairing is very very believable. I'd love to see it written well. I mean they are both very passionate about what they do. They care a lot for the people they are close to and as you say, close to the same age. Very charming. and omgtheirloveissonerdgirl *grin*
I am really looking forward to your epic-fic. If it is even close to the quality of Housewarming I will be very glad. and thanks for not minding the out-of-the-blue commenting. It is nice to be in a fandom where I actually can speculate about things. Before this the series I have been watching has all been finished when I start getting into the fandom.
Oh and puppy. My bf is also allergic to cats so therefore puppy. I just posted some images of him in my lj. He really is the cutest thing even at 7 am when it is raining. :) His name is Eagonn.
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I still kind of question the stasis thing, because, well -- it means someone would have had to have locked him away for this long; who's got the power to do that, and if Hoenheim is "only human," where did they have the power to keep him alive and in stasis, so that even after years (if we assume Hoenheim left when Al was, say, two, since he couldn't remember his father by age five -- that's about fourteen years right there), he's immediately recognizable.
Another interesting point is that, in the manga, Pinako is pissed at Hoenheim for abandoning his family; she says they used to be drinking buddies, but she doesn't know where he is now, and doesn't care if he's alive or dead, the no-good bastard. In the anime, at least, she seems almost pleased to see him again; this could be an act to keep Winry and Shcieska from worrying, but still. It struck me as interesting. >_>
The series *does* humanize the villains, I agree, but it's not over quite yet -- there's still a chance we're going to see more about Envy in the end. Given his prominence in the new opening with Sloth, I suspect he's going to start playing a larger role very soon, so we'll have to see.
Me, actually, I think I've been corrupted by playing the second GBA game too long -- I'm all Viola/Winry OTP! (Viola being a game-only character, also a mechanic, who becomes friends with Winry -- though not really Ed and Al -- very fast, to the point where it goes from "DAMNIT YOU'RE FRIENDS WITH A STATE ALCHEMIST HAAAATE" to "Can I tell you my incredibly depressing story about my parents and my little sister?" and yeah. XD Though for anime continuity, hell, why not -- Winry/Shcieska yay!
Heeeee. Well, hopefully when it comes time to post that monstrous thing, it won't disappoint. :D We've had a LOT of fun writing it so far, but it's also really nice to have it be well-recieved♥ And nah, I don't mind at all about the commenting thing -- I LIKE hearing from new people, and hearing different takes on fandom debates. [grins]
NINPOU PUPPY-CHAN. [coughs] Sorry, it's just -- damn, seriously, your dog is really really freaking cute. XD I have such a weakness for cute little faces like that. XD XD XD
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I ahven't gotten far enough into the manga yet to gives a theory on that version. I will soon though :)
By the way... I updated with more puppy-pics in my lj. [pimps her puppy like mad]
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The split-idea may work, though; maybe neither being the real Hoenheim, but homunculi? I mean, if trying to ressurect someone once creates a homunculus with their memories who looks just like that person ... what happens if you try to raise the same person twice?
Also: YOUR PUPPY IS SO CUTE OMG. :O If I were in your neighborhood, I would so volunteer petsitting whenever you went out of town. :O
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Re: Another point...
The original point, however, was -- for all that I haven't seen too much of that, I did read all of this (and found it interesting as all hell) and it really reminded me of something. Er. Videogame for PS2, called Shadow of Destiny, have you heard of it? I've kinda been reading about FMA a while, although I sorta just made the connection as I was reading through this, in particular the parts about stasis.. 'cause the 'real' ending for the game (there are a lot of endings) involves one of the main characters being in a similar sorta thing.. I donno if I should go into it, 'cause I figure you wouldn't wanna be spoiled if you ever did play it.. But. Well. Yeah. Sort of a pointless comment other than an OMGCONNECTION! on my part.
And um. Sorry if this was random. And. All. *Cough. Hides.*
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Re: Another point...
Well, thank you -- I'm flattered you'd read my fics, even barely knowing anything about FMA. XD If you're really curious about the anime, hell, I've gotta burn CDs for a friend anyway. XD Lemme know if you're interested. XD And actually, I'm BUYING the manga as it comes out -- it'll be a while yet 'fore I can get v8, because there aren't any Japanese bookstores near where I LIVE, but they're near where I go to school -- but yeah. XD There IS a group out there scanslating the later issues up to present, so if you give me a bit of time, I can scrounge around and see if I can find the links. :D
[ponders] Honestly, not really being much of a gamer myself (i.e., I JUST started playing my first PS2 game ever two weeks ago XD;), I haven't heard of this game. But that's cool -- connective posts are interesting too, because I like hearing of connections, and who knows? I MAY play the game someday (I am open to new things, just reaaaaally slow getting around to them XD;), so I'll keep that in mind. :D
Don't worry about random. ^^ Ye gods and fishes know I'm the last person who's got any right to complain about randomness. XD Keeps life interesting, wot. ♥♥♥
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Re: Another point...
Heh. Actually *cough* what er.. originally made me interested in finding out more about the series were harukami's fics about it, and she linked here, and joy! another wonderful author! ^^; (Insert flattery here, much? >>;)
And.. yup. It's kind of an old game -- it was the first PS2 game I got.. I can't remember why I picked it up, but it's pretty interesting. Kind of a different style, too -- there's NO fighting at all in the game, the main point is to keep the main character from getting himself killed via a time-travelling device given to him by a creepycool character called 'the homunculus' (game's separated into.. 10 chapters, I think, each one to avoid a different sort of death while trying to figure out who's trying to kill him and why.. ^^;) I'm so tempted to go into the other connection-thingys, although that's the only real non-spoiler one.. >>;
Glad it doesn't bother you, then. ^^ Oi, you mind if I friend you? ^^;
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[laughs] Haru's a good writer, and one of the nicest people I know. I suspect she gives me too much credit, but I'm glad to know you're reading her stuff. :D :D :D :D
Yeaaah, see -- the only PS2 game I've played to date is Disgaea, which is allll about the tactics, baby. XD It's sad how I was never good at either chess or go, but I have waaaay too much fun setting up my characters and beating people up. XD And huh, the game even as homunculi, too, that's awesome. XD If you really want, you can go on about the spoiler thing -- I actually don't mind 'em, unless it's something I've been REALLY REALLY REALLY wanting to read/see/play -- then I get whiney, but everything else, even if it's something I'm anticipating, I don't mind spoilers. ^^
Go ahead and friend me, if you like~ I don't mind at all. :D
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Re: Another point...
I haven't played too many tactics games. Um. Just.. I think Final Fantasy Tactics and Ogre Tactics -- and they did amuse me, mmhm (although I never really saw much use in having the little human-classes when with a bit of hunting, I could have a little army of all monster characters.. >>;) Disgaea looked cute, and I heard good things about it, but I've never gotten much of a chance to play it. x.X;
And yep. Or well, one homunculus, who amuses me. Anyway, since you don't mind, I will. ^^
As I was saying, the comment on him being in a sort of 'stasis' reminded me of one of the endings to the game -- it insinuates that the main character (Eike Kusch) has been around for a VERY long time, but that he has no memories of it. But backing up a bit, as I said in the last comment, the premise of the game is that SOMEONE is out to kill Eike Kusch, however the game's Homunculus (who is never given any other name) decides to help him out and give him a time-jumping-device so he can stop each attempt before it happens -- he doesn't give any reason for doing so (and, offnote, it's rather funny in game if you DON'T stop the attempt, as the Homunculus starts mocking Eike if you mess up enough). Anyway, shortly into the game, second chapter I think, Eike comes to possess an odd red stone -- he plans to have it set into a necklace or a ring to give to one of the female characters (I can't remember her name x.X), shortly afterward he is forced to time-jump and ends up in a fairly medieval era where he meets a family of scientists (or the father and son are, anyway) -- you find out later in the game that they're actually related to him, and Eike NEVER meets the father ingame, he just hears about him from his son. It turns out, if you get the 'right' ending, that the father of the family is actually none other than Eike Kusch -- his original life -- and that the red stone you find much earlier in the game is the Philosopher's Stone and was used to summon the game's Homunculus (also that if future-Eike hadn't interfered, the stone would have never come into creation -- thus why it gave him the device to time-jump) -- he then has it grant him one thing: eternal youth. It does so (laughing as it does) and then disappears -- however, either because of something it did to him, or perhaps his mind not being able to take living so long (they don't explain that) he has a sort of amnesia and can't remember very far back into his past at any given point of time (ingame he carries around lots of photographs and a journal 'so he doesn't forget'.)
Anyway. Yup. Game in a nutshell, and.. all. ^^; Looong comment for me. o.o;